5,504,142
Like with this, it frustrates me that there are so many damn rules in the world, and most of them aren't even enforced, other than on some, but not others. People aren't held accountable for their actions, especially if they are in a position of power. There should be fewer rules and more accountability, in my humble opinion.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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Kathleen Daniels, Prob...
San Jose, CA
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Denise Copeland
Jupiter, FL
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Candice A. Donofrio
Fort Mohave, AZ
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
-
Thomas J. Nelson, REAL...
San Diego, CA
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Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
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Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
2,776,302
Hi Denise Copeland
Did you have a Contract with that Buyer (EBBA or similar), obligating him to pay you/your Broker a commission at closing?
That might be your only recourse - to sue that Buyer for a commission.
And, what about the MLS - was there an offer of compensation (at that time, before the NAR debacle)? If yes, you/your Broker could take it to the appropriate MLS Committee (Procuring Cause, or similar).
It's too late to say, "See an attorney", but after exhausting other options, that might have been the appropriate thing to do.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
-
Kathleen Daniels, Prob...
San Jose, CA
-
Candice A. Donofrio
Fort Mohave, AZ
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
-
Thomas J. Nelson, REAL...
San Diego, CA
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
-
Brian England
Gilbert, AZ
-
Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
1,593,285
Because some states are requiring it due to bogus claims of racism and NAR wants to be able to say "No, we're all ethical. We trained our members on that, so it's not our (NAR's) fault that something happened."
As has been said, ethics cannot be taught, and there are so many shady people in this (and any) sales field. The whole buyer commission revamp from the Stitzer suit makes the possibility of buyers going direct so much greater now.
On a different note, California is no better than Florida. I've given our DRE investigators packages on license law violations of other agents on a silver platter and they've done nothing. It's really not worth reporting anything anymore.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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Kathleen Daniels, Prob...
San Jose, CA
-
Denise Copeland
Jupiter, FL
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Candice A. Donofrio
Fort Mohave, AZ
-
Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
1,464,625
Great question I have asked many times myself.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
-
Denise Copeland
Jupiter, FL
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
-
Thomas J. Nelson, REAL...
San Diego, CA
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
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Brian England
Gilbert, AZ
-
Katina Hargrove 352-55...
Mount Dora, FL
2,788,770
I understand your pain Denise Copeland as I have had a similar experience. I believe everyone on the NDREC is a licensed Realtor or broker so they do have to take the ethics courses as well. I also know that the NDREC does get involved with commission violations as did our local board.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
-
Kathleen Daniels, Prob...
San Jose, CA
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
-
Thomas J. Nelson, REAL...
San Diego, CA
-
Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
5,993,528
As a managing broker in Florida for over 20 years I do not want to just be negative here, but FREC has issues of perception, which tie their hands in terms of ethics and true regulation compounded by the fact that Fred Griffin Florida Real Estate nailed it, you can't teach "ethics". A person naturally has them or acts like the agent you dealt with. By the way his/her managing broker is just as unethical.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Candice A. Donofrio
Fort Mohave, AZ
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
-
Thomas J. Nelson, REAL...
San Diego, CA
-
Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
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Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
533,349
1) I agree with Fred Griffin, Ethics cannot be taught. Either you are honest or you are not. No class will change that.
2) in Florida, the Broker has to initiate any action on your lost commission. If your Broker will not, you really have no recourse.
3) in 25 years.of real estate, this has happened to me several times. My advice is to be better prepared with written paperwork going forward. Sunbiz Florida can provide names in the llc that might of helped 2 years ago.
4) Lastly, reevaluate your process with Buyers. Learn from this and move on with new Buyers or change careers NOW, don't wait for the next time. My bet is that you will run into more unethical situations in your future real estate career. Decide now if this is the career you want for you & your future.
Sorry to be harsh, I have been where you are.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
-
Thomas J. Nelson, REAL...
San Diego, CA
-
Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
-
Brian England
Gilbert, AZ
-
Katina Hargrove 352-55...
Mount Dora, FL
7,231,993
Clearly we have an ethics problem, both in this case and others.
Seems to me in this case you have a case against the buyer, take them to court and put a lien on the property.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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Denise Copeland
Jupiter, FL
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John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
-
Thomas J. Nelson, REAL...
San Diego, CA
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
-
Katina Hargrove 352-55...
Mount Dora, FL
959,015
If you were a transactional broker for your customer, you probably have no recourse. If you were a dedicated agent, you should've had in your contract a clause specifying that you are owed a commission on a property you had shown for up to maybe 180 days [or whatever] after the contract is canceled. However, I don't know if you could have foreseen the change in the name of the buyer, i.e. from individual to LLC, in this case, so this becomes a legal issue. You'd probably lose. Fraud often wins...
As to your specific question, I don't see how it applies to the "case study". We take the course to REMIND ourselves of what is appropriate. I'm sorry about your frustrating experience, I understand.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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Brian L. Sirota, Esq.
Orange, CA
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John Juarez
Fremont, CA
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Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
2,298,174
Most Agents honestly do not remember what the Code of Ethics says !
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
-
Laura T. Perry
Lancaster, PA
-
Denise Copeland
Jupiter, FL
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
1,019,188
There is a process in place to file a case and a timeline to pursue this type of situation you present Denise.
Read your Preamble again for the answer to your question.
Not all agents are Realtors
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Candice A. Donofrio
Fort Mohave, AZ
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
1,734,908
I'm commenting with the limited info you provided:
Your Buyer/Broker Agreement would have allowed you to collect your fee from that buyer or sue him. If you worked without a contract, as man y agents did pre-8/17/24, then it was 100% on you and no one could help you legitimately. This situation has nothing to do with your ethics, you are required to have them. It has to do with the other parties' lack of ethics, which you could have had the last laugh with had you been in a buyer/broker contract.
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John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
-
Doug Dawes
Topsfield, MA
-
Thomas J. Nelson, REAL...
San Diego, CA
1,172,717
Why? Bc they want to say we were taught. But you can't learn what you don't align with. It satisfies THEIR requirements, but it's up to us to live up. And many don't.
Now to your situation. Commission disputes are usually a civil matter and the state associations won't get involved.
Someone damaged you. Was it the buyer? Did you have an exclusive where buyer agreed to pay your fee if seller would not? Go after the buyer who breached your contract.
Was it the listing agent, working only for the seller? They had an obligation to sell that property and may or may not have snaked that to double dip. You may want to lawyer up and go after the seller's agent if they did.
There is NO possible way everyone will be held accountable unless you sue the individual. First thing NAR does not represent all licensees and many are not Rs. Second, as mentioned before, your recourse is 'probably' to get an attorney to take whichever damaged you to the mattresses.
The age-old problem with this in our industry is that most of us don't want to spend the money or take the time and fight for what is right. Sad but true, we pick our battles and let many slide.
Story time: one of my colleagues represented a guy who owns several strip malls in town. She helped him buy them, filled them and he profited from that association, as did she. UNTIL
A large strip center he owned and had an EXCLUSIVE right to lease with this broker, attracted a broker from back East who represented Tractor Supply. HE told the owner he needed 50k for his end. Owner agreed and with his own agent, put a multi-year lease together. How much was she paid? ZERO. Her long time client ghosted her, the tenant rep got his 50k and she was owed the same. Attempts to get him to be real were ignored. So she sued the pants off of him, which took time but she got her money and guess what else she got? SATISFACTION.
Bc these matters are public record, in addition to her telling anyone who would listen that this guy was a sleaze who tried to forget she existed when she had a signed exclusive what he tried to do to her and that she had to sue him to get paid . . . she made sure EVERYONE in this area knew about it. He would attempt to engage us and NO ONE would return his calls! Now he is stuck leasing and managing his properties all by himself.
10 years later this remains true.
So if you feel this strongly about it, take legal action if you can.
I've been sleazed out of fees before and capitulated, knowing that you never get to do it to me twice. There are a couple of brokers in my area who would never get a return call from me. Really, you think I'm blocking you? GO FILE A COMPLAINT!
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
-
Kat Palmiotti
Kalispell, MT
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
1,365,053
Because "they" think we need reminding...lol
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
-
Kathleen Daniels, Prob...
San Jose, CA
-
John Juarez
Fremont, CA
-
Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
1,655,375
I am sorry for your sad experience.
It is too late after two years to do anything, I suspect.
Just because the listing agent took an ethics course at some point, it did not make that person ethical. Obviously!
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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Kathleen Daniels, Prob...
San Jose, CA
-
Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
835,850
I know a Realtor on the Ethics comittee that broke every rule of ethics. I think Ethics Courses are required for the same reason there are locks on doors. They don't preven dishones prople but keep honest people honest.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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John Juarez
Fremont, CA
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Bob "RealMan" Timm
Minot, ND
3,582,732
Because lies, dishonesty, corruption, and evil seem to be what prevails these days. I am sorry that happened to you.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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Kathleen Daniels, Prob...
San Jose, CA
5,673,150
Hello and I have to agree with Fred comment on this subject. Yes we have to take them in Colorado also, but it is what it is.
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Debe Maxwell, CRS
Charlotte, NC
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Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
5,951,549
Oh, I’m so sorry that happened to you, Denise. Here, you would have been able to report an ethics violation and you would likely have gotten your EARNED commission. I’m on the Standards committee and this has definitely come across our desks on multiple occasions.
I do feel though that, like motivation, you can’t really teach ethics - either you’re ethical or your not!
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Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
489,897
why didn't you have a contract with your buyer?
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Fred Griffin Florida R...
Tallahassee, FL
465,186
Among the many roles I held working on Wall Street included creating and sometimes delivering training courses to regulatory and compliance departments. I also worked with bespoke courses that dealt with ethics- highlighting the grey areas of the business. It was one of the most interesting courses I ever created- breaking the audience into 2 teams to debate each other with the focus of the debates on these gray areas. That said- what I learned (beyond the technical aspects of these courses) is that no amount of regulation is going to be a magical fix for everything. It is important to have regulation to catch the bulk of bad behavior- but don't expect it to fix everything. Over regulating can have the opposite effect of what was intended- and totally backfire- so it's really important to find the line between effective and over-regulating. Unfortunately- we don't do a very good job of this- and then you have a loud vocal audience that pushes to deregulate everything- and then we do- and it's only a matter of time before we re-regulate. Capitalism is the best system out there- but if left unchecked will ruin itself.
Ethics courses are no different. No way we hold everyone accountable for all the bad actions- it would choke the system. Even criminal prosecutors have to often pick their battles. That said- of course I would love to live in a utopian system where every bad actor is punished- but from a realistic point of view, it ain't happening. That said- I know if I am wronged by a bad agent- there are some situations my managing broker can step in, and there may be repercussions between the firms- but it won't be the solution in every instance. I just lost a $3m buyer (with a higher than typical commission) because the listing agent lied through his teeth on everything that was ultimately uncovered during attorney due diligence- breaking the buyers spirit in the process. It sucks to take the loss since the buyer decided to not purchase anything as this would be a pied a terre. There isn't much I can do about it but lick my wounds and move on.
1,711,015
3,006,245
People make their own ethics (character) not ethics make people. Amazing how so many people rely on credentials instead of righteousness & honesty. Making someone take a course doesn't make them honest or transparent