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Sam Shueh
(408) 425-1601 - San Jose, CA
mba, cdpe, reopro, pe

Hire a appraiser get a third party opinion. 

Oct 16, 2015 01:07 AM
Cindy Davis
SD Home Source Realty - San Diego, CA

How much do you want to work with this guy?  If he is that unreasonable about may be better to refer him out.

Oct 16, 2015 12:52 AM
Praful Thakkar
LAER Realty Partners - Andover, MA
Andover, MA: Andover Luxury Homes For Sale

Richie Alan Naggar ask the seller to for the professional appraisal and go by his/her report.

And even after the seller is not happy.......

Oct 16, 2015 01:36 PM
Mike Rock
Complete Design - Granite Bay, CA
Granite Bay Luxury New Construction...For Less

pull county records. "sir, we can only show what is on the county record" unless you go thru the process of reevaluating.. the county will charge you and come out to inspect that new portion. and then maybe they will restate the size, if all permits were done.

Oct 16, 2015 03:30 AM
David Gibson CNE, 719-304-4684 ~ Colorado Springs Relocation
Colorado Real Estate Advisers LLC - Colorado Springs, CO
Relocation, Luxury & Lifestyle residential

The easy answer is to allow it to be included but to disclose, disclose, disclose. However, I would talk to your attorney since you are required to put a specific number of square feet in the MLS. Not worth getting sued.

Oct 16, 2015 02:40 AM
Michael Jacobs
Pasadena, CA
Los Angeles Pasadena 818.516.4393

Depending on how it has been completed, it may have value and appeal to a potential buyer but that "value" will take into account that it is non-permitted.   That value may not be reflective of what price a buyer may pay or an appraiser may assign.     

Oct 16, 2015 01:55 AM
Joe Pryor
The Virtual Real Estate Team - Oklahoma City, OK
REALTOR® - Oklahoma Investment Properties

Tell him he is not an appraiser. I have had appraisal courses but a long time ago but if SF is added on it does not mean that the value is the same as the house.

Oct 16, 2015 01:35 AM
Candice A. Donofrio
Next Wave RE Investments LLC Bullhead City AZ Commercial RE Broker - Fort Mohave, AZ
928-201-4BHC (4242) call/text

And your City/County does not recognize it as an improvement, I would presume?
The seller is not paying taxes on that additional square footage?
Does the room 'flow' in such a way that it truly looks/feels like the rest of the home? (We had this happen not long ago with a home that had a BEAUTIFUL AZ room. Appraiser would not include it, even though it WAS permitted, insulated, heated, cooled etc . . . because there was still a step down from the home to the room - and the exterior stucco and patio lights still remained on one wall.)
If you haven't been told by at least one appraiser that the room would be considered additional square footage, and your area relies on bank financing . . . this is a problem.
If the seller is so adamant that this room be included, he should hire an appraiser to confirm that so you can properly represent this property. Otherwise, you'll need to decide if the 'grief factor' is worth your current fee, or if you need to either renegotiate that fee or rethink your business relationship with that seller.
If your area may be hopping enough that a cash buyer would love the home, however . . . perhaps compromise with him and give it a timeframe:  "We will try it your way for X weeks/months, and if we hit a pothole, we do it my way!"

Lots of thoughts, lots of consumers who think they know better. :D

Oct 16, 2015 01:35 AM
Vera Gonzalez
RE/MAX Suburban, Inc. - Sterling Heights, MI
Gonzo For Real Estate

Maybe you can get a copy of what counts in appraisal guidelines. Sometimes if it is black and white it is better than what they consider hearsay for the seller:)

Oct 16, 2015 12:46 AM
Fred Hafdelin
Weichert Realtors - Mountain Lakes, NJ

Be up front in your descriptive.  Explain that the given square footage includes a non - permitted room. Let the Buyers negotiate a selling price being fully aware of this. If you think the inclusion of the non permitted rooms value in the list price will keep Buyers away , don't take the listing or refer it.

Oct 22, 2015 02:47 AM
Tony Lewis
Summit Real Estate Group - Valencia, CA
Summit Real Estate Group Valencia & Aliso Viejo

It has value if it is done professionally but wouldn't be counted as part of the square footage of the home.  Just think of it this way.  There is a beautiful non-permitted pool in the backyard that shows wonderfully.  Don't you think this pool would add value to the right buyer?  Yes, you would need to disclose it but that doesn't mean the buyer gets it for free.

Oct 17, 2015 05:28 PM
Joe Petrowsky
Mortgage Consultant, Right Trac Financial Group, Inc. NMLS # 2709 - Manchester, CT
Your Mortgage Consultant for Life

Good morning Richie. I see this issue a lot, it will show up during the appraisal process and then a sale can fall apart. The right time to deal with the issue is during the listing process.

Oct 16, 2015 07:45 PM
Les & Sarah Oswald
Realty One Group - Eastvale, CA
Broker, Realtor and Investor

I also agree with Sam Shueh. Get a non-partial third party appraiser to speak with him. Also, get in writing what appraisers can and can't add to the total square footage of a house.

Oct 16, 2015 11:45 AM
Debbie Reynolds, C21 Platinum Properties
Platinum Properties- (931)771-9070 - Clarksville, TN
The Dedicated Clarksville TN Realtor-(931)320-6730

Who is the expert herre, you or the seller? Explain as best you can but ultimately you will be the one looked at as misrepresenting the facts and that could hurt you and your business. If the seller doesn't come around you might ought to pass.

Oct 16, 2015 10:55 AM
Noah Seidenberg
Coldwell Banker - Evanston, IL
Chicagoland and Suburbs (800) 858-7917

I don't think so Richie, I would like to here the explanation as why?

Oct 16, 2015 07:54 AM
Mark Don McInnes, Sandpoint-Idaho
Sandpoint Realty LLC - Sandpoint, ID
North Idaho Real Estate - 208-255.6227

I think it could be advertised with disclosure.  Seller might not want that disclosed although somewhere down the road it will be coming out.  Better up front?  and he gets his square footage he wants shown.  Mark

Oct 16, 2015 06:25 AM
Kevin J. May
Florida Supreme Realty - Hobe Sound, FL
Serving the Treasure & Paradise Coasts of Florida

As long as it's not recognized in the Proerty Appraisers record I won't recognize its presence either. At some point the issue will be resolved and it won't be coming out of my pocket or a Buyer I represent. 

Oct 16, 2015 06:12 AM
Ron and Alexandra Seigel
Napa Consultants - Carpinteria, CA
Luxury Real Estate Branding, Marketing & Strategy


I like Sam Shueh 's answer.  A non-biased third party.  Or, it is time to say Goodbye!  A

Oct 16, 2015 06:03 AM
Barbara Todaro
RE/MAX Executive Realty - Happily Retired - Franklin, MA
Previously Affiliated with The Todaro Team

he needs to produce a permit for the that space to be occupied as a legal space according to the health codes and building codes.... period....or there will most likely be a closing followed by litigation....tell him to hire an attorney now in preparation for the future...

Oct 16, 2015 05:20 AM
Gabe Sanders
Real Estate of Florida specializing in Martin County Residential Homes, Condos and Land Sales - Stuart, FL
Stuart Florida Real Estate

Well, it is part of the home.  Though, if this home were in Florida, this room needs to be permitted before the sale can be executed.  (Unless it's a cash buyers willing to write off on the unpermitted work and also agree to waive title insurance for the same.)

Oct 16, 2015 04:50 AM
Caroline Gerardo
Licensed in 20 states - Newport Beach, CA
C. G. Barbeau the Loan Lady nmls 324982

Tell him to file for the permit and get the addition up to code????

Oct 16, 2015 04:40 AM
Andy Madrid
Hawaii Coast Realty, LLC - Kailua-Kona, HI
Expertise, Professionalism, and Service

 Does the unpermitted space have value?  Regardless of what an appraiser or the city/county says, as an experienced agent that knows the market you can have an opinion on it.  That being said, I might say something like "yes it has value but we will state that xx sq footage in xx room in not permitted and buyer to do their own due diligence."  You might also tell the seller something like - if it were fully permitted it might have $xx value but because of potential buyer concerns, city/county regulations and because it was done without permits it might only be worth xx to a buyer.

I just finished a kitchen remodel which included vaulting a ceiling, installing a new header, reconfiguring plumbing, electrical, gas, etc.  I pulled permits for all of it because there were structural changes.  A buyer is more willing to spend more knowing that the workmanship is solid and permits are all intact.

Oct 16, 2015 03:45 AM
Ryan Huggins - Thousand Oaks, CA - Thousand Oaks, CA
Residential Real Estate and Investment Properties

This is how I would handle it and how I've seen it handled in the past:


"Sun room is not permitted.  Seller believes square footage to be 1600, assessor has 1400.  Buyer to make own determination of property and lot size."   The lot size is just to cover all the bases.

Oct 16, 2015 03:25 AM
Nina Hollander, Broker
Coldwell Banker Realty - Charlotte, NC
Your Greater Charlotte Realtor

I think the answer to that depends on your particular MLS's rules on this. For example in ours a home with a permitted septic system for 3 bedrooms that has 4 bedrooms has to be listed as a 3 bedroom home, but we can list the square footage for the 4th bedroom so long as it's heated area.

Oct 16, 2015 03:23 AM
Stefan Winter
Real Estate in IL & NV | Owner of Real Estate Web Tech | Daily Vlogger - Las Vegas, NV
Owner - Winter Group & Real Estate Web Tech

Apprasil would be best, but if no one wants to pay the money I'd find where in the code it states it is not and show him. If that does not work, I'd take it as a referral.

Oct 16, 2015 02:52 AM
Bob Crane
Woodland Management Service / Woodland Real Estate, KW Diversified - Stevens Point, WI
Forestland Experts! 715-204-9671

I see some great answers here Richie though in my area permitting is not such a big deal and a room is a room if the footage is there we count it.

Oct 16, 2015 01:16 AM
Annette Lawrence , Palm Harbor, FL 727-420-4041
ReMax Realtec Group - Palm Harbor, FL
Making FLORIDA Real Estate EZ

No problem. However, the only buyer will be a cash buyer.

In Florida, that restriction is not such a big deal. Nearly 60% of all sales are cash. In your area, it could dramatically reduce the buyer pool.

Explain how the title process is going to become a problem when the tax record and the signed contract do not match. Explain how the lender and the home insurer are not going to let this pass.

The challenge becomes if the sq feet in question make the difference between a 2 br or 3 br home.  That issue has greater challenges.

I helped sell a house with a non-permitted kitchen. The buyer was advised the option available was to make the kitchen disappear. They purchased the house with the rogue kitchen with the understanding the buyer would remove the kitchen.

Oct 16, 2015 12:57 AM
Richie Alan Naggar
people first...then business Ran Right Realty - Riverside, CA
agent & author

Fred Hafdelin ...well balanced guidelines by you...thank you

Oct 22, 2015 04:05 AM