User68941_18_t Fairbanks Ak Real Estate Broker Jesse Clifton
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This is a continuation of two earlier posts regarding the Dr. Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Jr and Barack Obama; The Audacity of... Race & Unity & hope or Smoke & Mirrors. Feel free to read them to see the progression of thought.

Today Barack Obama appeared in Philadelphia to deliver a speech aimed, in part, at quelling the unrest caused by his former pastor, Dr. Jeremiah Wright, in a series of sermons at Trinity United Church of Christ. People will be debating for years whether this is or is not a real issue and whether Mr. Obama successfully dealt with it. A transcript of the speech can be found here for those that have not read it.

As a young man I was taught by my father, as I taught our children, that mere words are meaningless next to our actions. What you do or don't do says far more about your character than simply what you say. I was raised in the deeply divided south in an era in which people believed blacks were not equal to whites. While many were open about their beliefs, they refrained from expressing those views in front of my father for fear of being publicly rebuked. He firmly believed that we all children of God - and that God loved us all equally. I won't pretend to be blind - we come in all different shapes, sizes and colors, but our common thread as children of God transcends all.

Mr. Obama delivered an emotionally powerful speech today. In it he referred to the forces in his life that shaped him into the man he is today. He sought to evoke the idea that in America, anything is possible. It is possible for the son of a white woman from Kansas and a black man from Kenya to rise above the fray to receive a world class education, to fight for those who have no voice and to be within an arms length of being the Democratic nominee for President of the United States. On those points we are in total agreement and I applaud Mr. Obama for what he as accomplished and the lives he has touched along the way.

As we listen to this finely crafted piece of political prose, we are reminded that Mr. Obama is, in some respects, fighting for his political life. He has built a campaign upon a theme of unity, hope and faith in the greatness that lies within the heart and soul of all Americans. The question before us today is whether he can truly unite us or is he simply another in a long line of pretenders to the throne of a United America.

Many people, myself included, have questioned his twenty year devotion to a pastor and a church that openly and unashamedly seeks to divide rather than unite us. Legitimate concerns have been raised over whether a church that "...refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community...." is an appropriate place for a man with Presidential ambitions. Mr. Obama acknowledged that "there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough." He well understands that perception is often a formidable wall to penetrate. Mr. Obama would have us believe that he is inexplicably bound to Dr. Wright in the same fashion as his white grandmother. This is simply disingenuous.

The problem with that argument is that Mr. Obama's grandmother is not charged with the spiritual development and nurturing of the 8,000 souls that worship at Trinity United Church of Christ. Dr. Wright has used his position as a man of God to preach hatred and division - fostering the notion that somehow everyone else is to blame for the plight of the downtrodden in America. Dr. Wright seems to relish in pointing the righteous finger of indignation and assigning blame for the atrocities suffered by generations of African-American's rather than releasing those shackles and turning to God to benefit from the unbridled unity that is salvation through Jesus Christ.

Further issue is taken with the political two-step Mr. Obama danced today when he recanted an earlier comment of having never been in Dr. Wright’s presence when 'controversial' remarks were made. Seeking to diminish the inexcusable rhetoric he equates Dr. Wright's hate speech with comments we have all surely heard in our own church homes. If we did not abandon our church, then why should he? I have attended worship services in a multitude of churches, basilica's and cathedral's on five different continents and have never heard anything but messages of peace, love, hope and a call to serve God. Had I ever been confronted with a sermon advocating division and hatred I would have made an immediate exit. Our actions speak louder than our words - to remain in a church where such divisions and hatred were routinely offered as a substitute for spiritual nourishment is to sanction those words and actions. A forced 11th hour condemnation of the decades of vitriolic speech by Dr. Wright neither excuses or erases Mr. Obama's history of silent validation and endorsement of Dr. Wrights spiritual philosophy. It simply highlights a twenty year record of hypocrisy.

Mr. Obama sorely wants to wear the Crown of the Uniter - to be the man who overcomes historical chasms of separation and bridges the racial divisions that still exist. It is time we moved past the issues of race. There are pressing issues we, as a nation, need to address for the benefit of all citizens. I fail to see how a man who does not have the fortitude to take his own pastor to task for seeking to widen the social divides of this country or to resign in protest is ready to assume the role of the leader of the free world.

It would seem under the harsh light of scrutiny, Mr. Obama is not the uniter he would aspire to be, but simply just another politician who will do or say anything to grasp the ultimate political brass ring.

 
Post is included in group: Silent Majority

25 Comments on Bridging the divide

Jesse and Kathy, I will agree with you. Although Obama is charismatic and a good orator, he is not the statesman or patriot that he aspires to be. He like all the others in this hunt is just another politician who will say and do anything to get elected.

03/19/2008 03:35 AM by Michael Thornton - Nashville, TN area Home Inspector (Complete Home Inspections, Inc.)


Your passion and commitment on this issue are evident, and you articulate it well.  I look for you to be coming to D.C. in the future as a Congressman from Fairbanks!  Of course, Obama gets a complete pass from the liberal D.C. press - how is it playing in Alaska media?

03/19/2008 05:50 AM by Margaret Woda, Crofton Maryland Real Estate (Long & Foster REALTORS)


What a well-written post, most deserving of the little gold star!  I've been saying this for some time now but, those around me seem to think that his articulated speeches are all they need to hear to put him in the White House.  It's amazing that Americans won't think for themselves--they go with their party and that's it--no matter how much the candidate's background SCREAMS that he/she is doing whatever it takes to win the election!   I'm honestly afraid of what is going to happen to our country if he wins--we already have such an enormous divide now.

03/19/2008 06:56 AM by Debe Maxwell (Helen Adams Realty)


Jesse & Kathy,

I've enjoyed your last three posts on this topic...they were eloquently expressed...my thoughts are around how Christians, who should maintain a few central core beliefs, the greatest of which is that there is only one God, can become polytheistic in their expression of their faith...There is only one God, and He loves each of us...the inequalities that surround us are not God-inspired but the result of man's fall from grace!!! JMHO, Thanks,   Fran

03/19/2008 08:09 AM by Fran 'The Title Man' Gaspari Title Insurance-PA & NJ (Patriot Land Transfer, Inc.)


Jesse & Kathy:

Excellent coverage on this topic.  Good job!

03/19/2008 08:32 AM by » Bill Burress Nationwide Mortgage Originator


Jesse and Kathy:

Congratulations!

This post has earned featured post status on the Silent Majority group in ActiveRain.

 

 

 

 

 

03/19/2008 08:34 AM by » Bill Burress Nationwide Mortgage Originator


Jesse and Kathy -Although it pains me to say it there are people who attend Church for the wrong reasons. As an aspiring politician I,m sure Obama found it in his interest to attend a church with such a large congregation of his constituents. What is sad is that he would bring his children. This man is a Harvard graduate you would hope that he would not get taken in by such rhetoric.  What is ultimately sad are churches that do not stay true to the word, this one may be more over the top than some but I'm soory to say there are alot more that seem to have their own agenda.

03/19/2008 08:44 AM by Hugh Krone Sussex County NJ Century 21 Realtor (Century21BillSemmens)


Jesse & Kathy, WOW you did a great job of voicing my concerns.  I don't know that I could have phrased it as articulately as you did.  I am subscribing to your blog. 

03/19/2008 05:13 PM by Marchel Peterson Spring TX Real Estate E-Pro ABR (Results Realty)


I am still having a hard time understanding the logic of this line of thought.  If, indeed, actions mean more than words, why are there still Catholics.  Wouldn't your logic impel all Catholics to leave that church after all of the pedophilic problems with thousands of their ministers?  I think I would prefer to have a minister who makes me think, who challenges me and, yes, maybe even infuriates me, than one who preaches love and redemption and then violates children.  From what I read, the Trinity United Church of Christ is a very large and respected church and the Reverend Wright did much good work within the community.  The fact that he spouted some anti-white rhetoric may be shocking to us white-folks but probably within the experience of many in his congregation.  As one who was brought up in a small town where the term "n---r" was commonplace (but not necessarily condenscending), I am surprised at the latent racisim and hypocracy behind a lot of what I have read in your postings and the comments to them.  It is a sad thing to observe but I think racism is still alive and well.

03/19/2008 10:40 PM by Bill Schwent - Santa Fe broker (Casa Tierra Realty)


Michael - I think many have seen Mr. Obama for the 'politician' he is this week.

Margaret - Thank you but I've done my time in DC... at this age I'm content to promote policy with my checkbook and my vote. :)  The flap is not playing all that well up here - folks are saying he's seriously damaged his image.

Debe - Thank you!   We do still have divisions that need to be healed, but they can't be healed when folks like Dr. Wright continue not allowing old wounds to heal.  I think he put his candidacy in serious peril... whether he can pull off the nomination is a question we'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Fran - You are absolutely correct.  As a Christian I believe in a loving unifying God and that love can bind us together in a way that can't be easily divided.  Seems as though Dr. Wright forgot that tenet of the Christian faith.

Bill - Thank you!  I don't normally wade into such waters, especially where our real estate practice is involved, but this is an issue I believe has grave consequences for our country... based on that I just could not keep quiet.

Hugh - Therein lies the true quandary with Mr. Obama - Did he join Trinity United to find a expedient route to cultural acceptance or???  The answer to that question is one we will never know.  We do know enough, however, to paint him as a liar and a hypocrite - not necessarily traits that will keep him from elected office; some would argue quite the opposite, that those traits make him cut from the same cloth as a thousand other politicians... a label he's tried quite ardently to avoid.

Marchel - Thank you for reading and commenting. As I mentioned above I'm not quite this controversial on a normal basis, but sometimes things just need to be said.  Hopefully the market reports won't bore you to tears!

Bill - Interesting analogy but it doesn't hold water. I'm not condemning a particular faith - nowhere did you read where I called for the abolition of the Church of Christ or all Church of Christ congregants.  I would have been a very vocal proponent of removing Dr. Wright from his post had he not resigned just as I have been an outspoken critic of the Catholic priests and bishops  who have strayed into sin and those diocese who failed to take swift decisive action to stop it. The difference is that the congregants of the Catholic Church do not, at least to my knowledge, condone the heinous acts committed by some priests/bishops.  Had a particular congregation discovered a priest was abusing children for two decades while tending his flock AND they remained as members for that time, I would take issue with the parishioners condoning that behavior with their presence.

Perhaps I've been going to the wrong Church; perhaps I belong to the wrong denomination but I have never heard a Presbyterian or Methodist minister preach hate.  Never. If I had ever anything remotely close to the hateful rhetoric that Dr. Wright preached on a very regular basis, I would have made a very quick and public retreat from the service.  I would not have listened to the remainder of the sermon, let alone listened to similar rhetoric for two decades. 

Actions are indeed more powerful than words - Barack Obama's condemnation of Dr. Wright's attitude, which really was not a condemnation but an explanation - is simply empty talk when one considers he and his family spent twenty years silently condoning the same type of speech.  It is akin to someone saying "I'm sorry" after they are caught with their hand in the cookie jar - are they truly sorry... or are they simply sorry they were caught?  That is hypocrisy.

03/20/2008 12:22 AM by Fairbanks Ak Real Estate Broker Jesse Clifton (Jesse & Kathy Clifton, REALTORS 907-699-6024)


I guess you know where I am going to stand on this one.

I think we need to move beyond waving the flag in smug satisfaction. I'm ASHAMED of this country.  Ashamed and disgusted.  Plain old corporate greed has taken over the country - With nearly 5o million Americans going without health insurance and 40 % of the population living a significant portions of their lives in poverty, while gluttonous wealth is being hoarded at the top  realistically we have precious little to be proud of.  I won't even START on the war which is largely being fought by and at the expense of the working poor.  It is also thanks to these disgustingly wealthy people that and their political ties that we almost drove our entire economic system off a cliff and into  another Great Depression this week.  In many ways this is due to the free market cowboy mentality of the current administration. 

I grew up in a church where the pastor (he was white and southern) had let some of his more liberal views be known in the deep south in the early 1960s.  Although I didn't really live through the era of desegregation - it was made real to me through this pastor's experience. He had molotov cocktails lobbed through the window of his home.  His children were threatened and under police guard at school. His wife was similarly threatened.   Why?  His religious and social views were left of the status quo.   He wound up in NY because he was in physical danger south of the Mason-Dixon line.  I have two points here.

First and most obvious -  My father makes Pat Buchanon and Rush Limbaugh look liberal. Seriously. He and my mother knew this pastor quite well, attended his church regularly and had him to our home for dinners and parties on several occasions. Now, does that mean that they hold his views? NOPE....not at ALL. They took tremendous issue with many of his views. And trust me, this pastor had some pretty radical views.  That man makes ME look conservative. Soooo the association with Obama - to my mind is meaningless. People can like, respect, and socialize and attend the church of and even be mentored by a pastor that the DO NOT AGREE WITH about all things.  It happens all the time and has nothing to do with this campaign.

Second point - this pastor of Obama's came of age in the same time  my former minister to flee for fear of his life.  Being black in that era could be a terrifying - if not life threatening experience. Many people died in Dr. Martin Luther King's protest marches. African Americans were second class citizens and black anger under those conditions is NOT unreasonable or even surprising. The fact that much of the social progress made over the previous 20 years was being rolled back could also cause a resurgence of anger in minority communities throughout the nation. It stands to reason that if middle class white Americans are being decimated by the economy - that the lot of African Americans is in many cases pretty grim. 

What bothers me is that we have far bigger issues facing us than this type of side show. It's time to GET SERIOUS about getting our country's financial house in order. We need to clean up the corporate mess that we've made and we need to take control of this situation and REGULATE THE BANKING INDUSTRY despite their squeals for an open and "free market." If what we've had is an example of "open and free" I'll go fore  regulation any day.

03/20/2008 06:01 AM by Ruthmarie Hicks (Keller Williams Realty)


Bill Schwent:

You wrote. "I am surprised at the latent racisim and hypocracy behind a lot of what I have read in your postings and the comments to them.  It is a sad thing to observe but I think racism is still alive and well."

You are sadly mistaken.  Jesse and Kathy are far from racists.  They are strong conservatives who believe in conservative values.  There are no racists views here in the post nor the comments "latent" or otherwise.  Of course, you could not be more vague with your comment.  No specifics.  No surprise.  No substance or facts to illustrate or back up your accusations because there is nothing here to support your claims.

Get off of your high horse and stop calling people racists just because you don't agree with them. 

I strongly feel an apology is in order from you to all here.

03/20/2008 11:06 AM by » Bill Burress Nationwide Mortgage Originator


OUCH!!! I didn't see that one Bill  -

I have VERY strong views about conservatism. I think that far-right free market cowboy mentality has the potential to bring this country to its knees.  But Jesse and Kathy are NOT racists.

Many members of my family are wildly consevative. IMO they (along with Jesse and Kathy) mistake patriotism for blindly supporting our government. This is particularly true when THEIR party is in control. THey don't have the stomach for airing the very real flaws in our system and they especially don't like that people pointing out where many (most ) of their trickle down policies have been a dismal failure.  Wrapping oneself in the flag is NOT patriotism. Putting your hand on your heart or wearing a flag pin are easy.  Having the courage to put yourself out there and say that the republicans have ruined our economy for the masses while enriching the few and created a war that had NOTHING to do with 9/11 and is nothing more than a money pit that has cost many lives and crippled thousands for life - that takes guts!  And many conservatives don't "get" that voicing concerns and being disgusted with the status quo is the highest form of patriotism.

But does that make them racist _ ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! You can be angry at the far-right -but don't confuse their misguided idea that dissent shouldn't be tolerated with racism.  Tow completely different issues.  My parent's would say something similar.  My father did (my mother passed 12 years ago.) And he was not at all happy with my intention to vote for Obama regardless.  But he is color-blind - as was my mother. When we start throwing the "racism" card around - it is as bad as the other side trying to muzzle liberals by playing the "patriotism" card.

03/20/2008 01:19 PM by Ruthmarie Hicks (Keller Williams Realty)


Ruthmarie,

Okay, I will give the others the label of misguided patriotism rather than racism.  But there is also a significant lack of empathy and understanding here.  I have heard the same oratory from Dr. Wright but do not consider him to unpatriotic.  He is articulating the same things you and I wrote in our blogs above, but with different words and likely, words that can be better understood by most of his congregation.  Is a government that takes us to an elective war, destroys a nation, incenses an entire population, kills 4000 young Americans and thousands of Muslins, makes our country less safe and less respected by the rest of the world, and, in the process, bankrupts the ecomony and loads our grandchildren with intolerable debt ... that's okay?! ... and what Dr. Wright says is not!  I don't get it.

03/20/2008 02:01 PM by Bill Schwent - Santa Fe broker (Casa Tierra Realty)


Ruthmarie - I'll respond to the Wright/obama issue first then come back to the rest of your comment.

I suppose the first thing to address is that your former pastor, while left of your parents views, did not advocate widening racial divides.  It sounds as though he sought to narrow them, so that isn't the same as Dr. Wright's open advocation of racial separation. If he was to the left of the status quo in the 60's in the south he was preaching acceptance, unity, Christian love, etc.  That's hardly the message coming from Trinity United Church.  That your parents welcomed him into their home is something I would expect to hear. 

I am very much a product of that era... I was 9 when Dr. King was killed, so while I was a little young to grasp much of what was going on, I did grow up in a very segregated south.  I can somewhat understand the frustrations and anger that came from that era; I say somewhat because I obviously had a different experience as a 9 y/o white kid in a upper middle class home.  I have never made excuses for what happened, nor do I intend to start now... that era is indeed a stain on the fabric of American history. Dr. Wright's message of hatred would not be condoned by Dr. King - why should we condone it?  There is absolutely no smug flag waving here - I'm disgusted by the things Dr. Wright said just as I'm disgusted by the simple minded fools that circulated that photo of Obama in the Kenyan ceremonial dress and whispered "he's a muslim" in order to evoke racist emotions. 

Now, to veer slightly off track...I'm one of those free market cowboys you mention.  I know full well that the private sector is far more efficient and results oriented than any government bureaucracy will ever hope to be.  The stress being felt in the global financial markets is a result of a loss of investor confidence, pure and simple. It happens.  We will survive and grow just as we have survived every economic slowdown in our history.

The rupturing of the housing bubble was due to a hyper level of greed and an instant gratification mentality - too many people overextended far beyond their reach for a variety of reasons and when the gravy train ended, they found they were in trouble.  I've seen it before and we'll see it again - yes, innocent middle class folks have been caught up in the meltdown net, but remember there is no guarantee of prosperity in the constitution - setbacks happen and we have to deal with them.  That doesn't mean I expect or want the government stepping in with additional layers of bureaucracy.  Help should be available for those who were genuinely in need, but those folks who bought and lived beyond their means and are now suffering, they are just going to have to deal with it sans Uncle Sam's deep pockets.

Now, as to your later comment - I am far from blind.  I have taken issue with many things GW has done during his tenure.  I have taken our congressional delegation to task on more than one occasion and have withheld financial support.  I'm not happy with the way the war has been handled... I'm not happy with runaway spending.  I do not see the Administration as perfect nor have I ever seen a perfect Administration. GW did get my vote in 2004 because I didn't trust or agree with Kerry.  McCain will get my vote in November because I disagree with the political ideology of both Clinton and Obama but please do not take that as an endorsement of everything McCain stands for.  He is, at this point, simply the lesser of two, or rather three, evils.

PS.  This is to everyone reading... My views are a result of almost 50 years of living and learning and I can defend my positions all day, every day.  I have no problem with dissent... disagree with me and/or our elected officials until the cows come home... that is the cornerstone of a democratic society - We may not always agree, but I have no interst in stifling anyone. 

 

03/20/2008 09:45 PM by Fairbanks Ak Real Estate Broker Jesse Clifton (Jesse & Kathy Clifton, REALTORS 907-699-6024)


Bill - Thanks for wading into this.  Frankly, I had no intention to address that particular comment.  Too often people throw similar statements out on both sides, which is truly counterproductive and it stops us from having  a dialogue about the real issues we face.  I'm still thinking about that other video you posted... wow.

Bill S - I do appreciate your commenting on this subject... I'm a lot of things...misguided isn't one of them. The elective war, deaths, nation destroying, etc. you mention is all opinion.  Mine happens to differ dramatically.

03/20/2008 11:38 PM by Fairbanks Ak Real Estate Broker Jesse Clifton (Jesse & Kathy Clifton, REALTORS 907-699-6024)


Jesse and Kathy,

Thanks for the note.  So, tell us how your opinion "differs dramatically" from my post on the direction the current administration has taken the nation.  That may be asking you to diverge from your point on Obama, but I think not.  You did dramatically feature the fluttering flags in your blog above.  So, let's get down to it.  Obama had the strength to vote against the war when there was tremendous momentum in the Congress to go along with the Bush/Cheney offensive.  (Just for the record, I am writing in Ron Paul in November!).  GW and Cheney had no experiense with war because they avoided it in their youth. (Interesting that the British consider such service as important for their future kings).  GW and Cheney did understand that Iraq could be an important source of oil for the world in the future.  (Do you suppose that may have been a subject of the conversations between the V-P and the oil barons he met with and refuses to disclose to us as to what they discussed).  What has happened to transparency in government.  Since you voted for GW you must have some justification for the disaster he has reaked on the mid-east and, for that matter, the world not to mention our economy.  I'd guess that his support for "the right to life" had something to do with your support for him (just a guess from reading your personal history).  You are pretty eloquent with your writings and I would be interested in your response as I am trying to understand the point of view you represent with the support of most of the posters to your initial comments.

03/21/2008 08:34 PM by Bill Schwent - Santa Fe broker (Casa Tierra Realty)


Ruthmarie: Shame on you for saying you are ashamed of this country. This country has freed more pople, fed more people, came to the aide for more people than any country in history.

This is the gratest nation of the face of the earth, ever. Period end of story. And your anti-Americanism is apalling.

Maybe you should move to Iran, I heard they would love your kind of anti-American of spirit. You will look good in a birka.

03/21/2008 10:45 PM by Nicholas Goglucci, CRS ~ CLHMS, e-PRO ~ Re/Max Professional in South Florida (RE/Max In Motion, Inc.)


Nicholas,

It's 10:45 on a Friday evening so I can only think that you have been drinking after reading such an inappropriate posting.  "My country, right or wrong" is pretty much an antiquated way of thinking.  You know what that did to Germany and Italy a while back.  I suspect that what Rosemarie should have said is that she was ashamed of her "government" rather than her country.  I am in agreement with that sentiment.  But most of the world thinks that "we the people" and our "government" are one and the same.  Obviously, with GW at 30% popularity, that is not the case.  Dissent is our heritage otherwise we would be a British colony still.  If you are of the opinion that all our government has done in the past eight years represents the best of our country, you are sadly mistaken.  And apparently 70% of "we the people" agree.

03/21/2008 11:33 PM by Bill Schwent - Santa Fe broker (Casa Tierra Realty)


Ruthmarie,

It is extremely tempting to 'correct' things in the society by changing laws or enacting ones, or by a decree. I understand that I am off the topic here, sorry, but lets take Russia for a simple example.

In 1917 revolution, they did not follow the American or Western model. Leave the good, and cut off the bad - that was the idea. Give work to everyone, but get rid of prostitution and crime, take the capitalist free market and but make it a much better system by making it right.

Ideas of freedom and free speech and brotherhood, and fairness, and happiness were all over. But some stupid people did not embrace the changes. So, the government 'expedited' moving to this happy future (Communism) by issuing decrees.

There was such a disparity between enormous wealth and the poverty? Simple, lets take the wealth from the rich and distribute it equally between the poor. Factories to workers, land to peasants, peace to the World. Ouch, factories became ineffective, and peasants fed themselves, but did not produce grain to feed the workers.

Taking wealth from people by force needed a little correction, and the 'free' speech and freedoms were left only for the poor. Not a big deal, just a small group can suffer for the big goal. Not a very humane approach, but expediting needed sacrifices.

In a battle to distribute the wealth of the rich to the poor they decimated not only the rich, but the rest of the people who had SOMETHING. Because people who had nothing were now deciding what to do with those who had something.

In doing so, they had to reduce the 'freedom' for those who had something or who had been not really welcomed to that wonderful future, or who was not happy about this wonderful future. And their families. And their distant relatives. ANd relatives of their distant relatives. They were sacrificed for the total happiness for the rest.  The system was transforming, and soon started sacrificing the creators, as they were either too liberal, or radical, or critical. The purge helped to get rid of them. Who cares, they were putting the breaks in reaching the paradise, which, for the unknown reasons, was further away than it was in 1917. Now there were no rich, but all poor.

The country, that could feed the whole Europe before the WWI, could not sustain itself and started getting food from abroad (and never stopped buying food even though it has 55% of the best soils in the world). Just think about it, never was able to feed its population, forget about selling to the world, which they were doing before. Actually, it still buys food in exchange for oil. So, there were a lot of people, who, stupid, were thinking about feeding their families and not about bringing the revolution to the rest of the world. They needed to be dealt with. And that was already Stalin's era. So they enacted the law allowing to try and execute kids from 12 y. o. if they were caught picking grains left AFTER the field was harvested.

I do not want to keep going with that. Economy is tied to ideology. You tinker with one, the other shows its ugly head. Once interfering with the free market, there is no other way then the one I described. People who started it in 1917 Russia were full of best intentions. They wanted the best society in the fastest fashion. They were as idealistic as you, if not more.

Why wait for what I think is right to evolve, when I can shape it faster and better? There is nothing more dangerous that this way of thinking.

Of course, you would tell me that this is BS, as you can do it in a controlled manner. Please, tell me why not a single socialist country (and that's who know best how to regulate the market for the benefit of people) achieved anything worth of mentioning? Why Finland can feed its population and Cuba can't?

My older brother explained it to me in a simple way. Imagine a 15 car passenger train. It is a known fact that the last car is less stable and the least comfortable.  Your 15th car are your vices. Prostitution, poverty, drugs... So, you cut it loose. Now you have 14 cars, but 14th is not comfortable. So you cut it loose. Then you have to do the same with 13, 12.... Finally, you end up on a locomotive. If you ever been on a locomotive, damn the ride is rough.

Yes, you may not like everything in the free market system, it is not ideal, but any other so far never worked. Wy do you want to destroy what you have in a far fetched hope for a better regulated future? You may be ashamed of the country but you can only do it in the country with free market. You would never be ashamed of Russia, or China, or North Korea, or many other wonderful places where people were licking the smacking hand. In Russia before 1951 for that statement you would die. Before 1982 for that statement you would have been jailed. If you want to try to go to Russia and publicly scream your lungs out that you are ashamed of Russia, you may only need a one way ticket.

Remember:

You can't make people equally happy. You can only make them equally unhappy (concentration camp, for example).

You can't make people equally prosperous. You can only make them equally poor.

In 1940 the Red Army conquered Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. The only country that resisted and fought the Russian Army was Finland. Red Army failed in the attempt to conquer them, annexed a chunk of their land, and withdrew. When the USSR collapsed, and these three Baltic countries regained independence, turned out that economically they were so inferior to Finland, that it would take a very long time to get anywhere close if it ever happens at all. Interestingly, Finland in 1940 was economically far inferior to any of those three Baltic countries. If this is not enough, look at West and East Germany and the huge disparity between two parts of the same nation. The only difference is that one was a free country, and the other one was very good for people (remember the slogan: 'Everything for the people')

Boy, how can I convince you that the reason so many people from Russia, China, Albania, Croatia, Poland, Cuba and many other places ran to US is because they were fed up with what you are longing for. You can discount it and say that they are running for a better life. Wow, that's the right answer. Don't we know why?

I actually love it here. And I am not ashamed of this country. I am proud of it. Not that I do not see anything or refuse to see what you see. Simply because you do not see what I see.

As some wise man said: 'You see the flowers and you love the smell. We have tried the fruits and they are poisonous'. If we could only provide tours to, let's say, North Korea for one week only, that would be a very effective way to get sober.

And if you still decide that 'If what we've had is an example of "open and free" I'll go fore  regulation any day' could you experiment in some other place? Please?

 

03/22/2008 04:37 AM by Jon Zolsky (FunCoast Realty LLC)


Zon,

Good writing ... but.  If your assumption is that we have a "free market system" then explain these items:  does the tax system favor the wealthy and the powerful or "we the people"?  Does the administration work for their buddies, like Halibuton, or for "we the people"?  Does Congress pass subsidies to favor big oil and big agriculture and big business or to assist "we the people"? 

The hope of socialism is flawed because it sometimes stiffles the human spirit to achieve.  But the hope of capitalism is flawed because there is little control over the greed it creates in the winners.  Both economies can succeed if there is self-restraint in the leaders and winners.  However, both systems skew their societies to favor the winners and the powerful.  Some say that is where government should take the role of tempering the greed and inequality that results from either system.  This may be impossible in societies where the populations are in the hundreds of millions or even in the billions.  Most of the smaller European countries seem to be able to find the center. 

And your comment on why is Cuba not able to feed itself.  Do you suppose the embargo by their giant neighbor might have something to do with that?  I suspect that once Cuba is able to participate fully in the world economy, it will flourish.  Yes, its socialism will also incorporate some aspects of capitalism, as does China and Russia, but Cuba may be able to find a mid-point where the best of both can coexist and thrive.  I'd bet on that. 

I believe, like you, that we still have the best country in the world.  Indeed, it is the possibility of of our freedom and the simple chance of work that drives the poor of the world to our shores.  However, you don't see the Europeans clammoring to get here as they did in the 1900s.    Economic conditions are the primary controls over immigration, legal or illegal.  Yes, you are correct, you can't make people equally happy or equally prosperous, but a government with a Declaration of Independence like ours should insure that we give equal opportunity to all the citizenry and not create a class that is more equal than the rest. 

03/22/2008 11:16 AM by Bill Schwent - Santa Fe broker (Casa Tierra Realty)


Bill,

 About embargo of a giant neighbor. First, if the system was so powerful and liberating, why they don't have what to eat in the first place? By the way, there is no embargo from many other countries, so in a world economy what difference would it make that US has the embargo, while France doesn't? What effect will embargo of a giant Russia  have upon a tiny Finland, which is Russia's neighbor? Zero, zilch, nothing. What effect will be there if the Czech republic announces embargo of Austria? Big nothing. But it would be quite something if Austria sets the embargo on the Czechs.

Why Italy produces enough food for themselves, and sells to Europe and US while huge Ukraine with the best soils in the world struggles to feed themselves?

You tend to see them as economic systems both flawed and both fixable. This is far from reality. Their base is totally different. One is "we are the people" (even with all the things that you rightfully and wrongfully imply), and the individual is the key. So the system is built on the principal, that individual is the highest value, period. The other system is based on the government. Individuals are nuts and bolts to run this government the way it should be (perceived). So, if it does not the value is in the system,not in the individuals, which become the expandable material. Hence the ideology is different. That's why you have two polarized but similar ideologies of communism and fascism.

Castro not only deprived people of food, no. It actually comes secondary, First he deprived them freedom and information. Only now they allow people to use computers. How about flourishing?

Why is that vegetables and crops stop growing with the advent of socialism? And it happens every time the ideology supersedes everything else?

This is way deeper than how it looks. Why is Estonia developing at a much faster pace than Russia? Because they were annexed to USSR in 1940 and there are still people alive who remembered what working means, what owning something means. And Russians do not, because from 1917 it is too long. ..

What midpoint do you have in mind for Russia? Oil is expensive, and Russia has the money. If oil prices fell, there is nothing to sustain the country. IT will be the most dangerous beggar in the world. Because it has nukes. Korea needs nukes, because this is how they can get goods and food. South Korea, by the way, feeds itself OK, North does not.

How can North Korea participate in the world economy? What is there besides ideology? So, how they can flourish? By brandishing the nukes and making the world feed them? Which by the way, IMO, is a huge mistake. We should not allow it. Not to Korea, not to Iran. But wonderful well wishers are sure that we need to engage them in .... blah, blah, blah. If someone is brandishing a gun in a neighborhood, and demands money or he will start killing neighbors, do you give them money, or get the police to take him out?

Why wouldn't we do the same to North Korea and Iran?

The similarity between two systems is a mental illusion. They are as similar as German shepherds and wolves. You may wag the tail as much as you want, it means nothing to wolves. They do not bark, they kill.

By the way Barak Obama thinks that it would be a good idea to sit and talk to our enemies. So, the shepherd would go to talk to wolves and engage them in protecting the sheep. What a fascinating idea!

03/22/2008 02:50 PM by Jon Zolsky (FunCoast Realty LLC)


Bill Schwent: When I read your comments, it makes me what to go drink. You are so warped in your thinking it is a shame someone doesn't tell you to come in from the rain. You are all wet, and frankly, just ignorant. You ignorantly rave about 30% unfavorabiltiy rating for George Bush, but you liberal majority Congress has less. You blind yourself with your delusions, and this so called 30% that only believes Nicholas and Silent Majority's way, will laugh all the way to November when a republican is voted in for President.

We the people do have a voice, and we love America, and want our freedoms proptected.

And no smug, ingoramus like you will ever silence us.

03/22/2008 04:03 PM by Nicholas Goglucci, CRS ~ CLHMS, e-PRO ~ Re/Max Professional in South Florida (RE/Max In Motion, Inc.)


Evening, Bill - Just to clear up the flag issue - They are not being flown with smug satisfaction, but rather out of an immense pride in our standard and the experiment in democracy that gave birth to these United States.   

First I suppose we should address the "elective war" reference.  Could not all military conflicts since Colonial times be referred to as elective?  I'll assume by elective you mean unnecessary and perhaps even ill advised.  While I agree that there have been mistakes made in the implementation of the war, waging it was far from a mistake.  Hussein was given ample time to comply with the demands of the international community.  Everyone from the German FIS to British intelligence to UNSCOM and UNMOVIC and finally our own intelligence community said the same thing; Hussein was not being forthright about his weapons programs.  In an era in which an attack on American soil such as 911 could be perpetuated, it was imperative to move from a defense to offense.  In that light, I agree with preemptive action.  You mention that GW and Cheney had no active duty military service from which to call upon - neither did Wilson, who took us into WWI or FDR, who took us into WWII. I suppose we would have to go back to Eisenhower to find a President for whom his military service would have been of practical use in his role as Commander-in-Chief.

I'm not sure what nation was destroyed or population was incensed, so perhaps you can fill me in there.  The killing of 4,000 young Americans would be those service-members who lost their lives in the War on Terror? Their deaths are tragic but they died in defense of their country and culture - it also bears mentioning, of course, that we didn't kill them.  The 'thousands of Muslims' would be those folks we were/are fighting - sadly some civilians but predominately enemy combatants.  We are at war... the only way to avoid US military casualties is to drop a few nukes; not sure how you feel about that option though.  Our country and our allies are indeed far safer today than we were 6 years ago.  We are confronting the enemy abroad so we don't have to confront them at home.  It's a little trite, I'll admit, but accurate just the same. Let's not forget the middle east was a disaster long before we went on the offensive... there are just different players today.

GW and Cheney did understand that Iraq could be an important source of oil for the world in the future.  That's coming awful close to a "war for oil" comment, which is simply ludicrous.  We are a nation dependent on fossil fuels.  Protecting the nations supply of oil is a national security interest... I'm sure there were many discussions about oil.  Everyone likes to make big oil out to be the enemy but the truth is they earn the profits they do based on global supply and demand and in no small part because of the risks they take in development/extraction/refining.  Should we nationalize the oil companies? 

Bankrupting our country and loading our grandchildren with intolerable debt.  We come close to agreeing on these points.  The Clinton budget surplus did disappear but the only reason there was a surplus is because we were being taxed to death and then again when that happened.  Rather than curb federal spending, notwithstanding the DoD, Bush increased it, which was a mistake.  I also take issue with the reckless monetary policy at the FED, which, in my opinion, is in large part to blame for the economic slowdown we're in today.

In my opinion Bush and the GOP delegation abandoned the conservative movement.  I have issues with many things GW has done, but again, he still did a stellar job as compared to what would have been a horror ridden Presidency under Gore and/or Kerry.

03/23/2008 04:14 AM by Fairbanks Ak Real Estate Broker Jesse Clifton (Jesse & Kathy Clifton, REALTORS 907-699-6024)


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