AC,

There is noway this should happen in today`s society, yet it does,which saddens me! 

Anthony...

For now I would like to just check into this post and see whether or not an educational discussion unfolds.

Please do not assume that I find your post to be educationally challenged.

This is a very educational post and I would like to see what to see what other members have to say.

It is undeniable that the successful Realtor wants to appeal to a niche.  Whether the niches are geographical, social or ecomoic depends on the realtor at hand. 

Why else would people take pictures with their families? To appeal with those that have kids!  This defies the familial status.  Multi lingual persons advertise that they speak certain languages.  That is to target to those that would prefer to speak a different language.  Why do people get an SRES designation?  To target seniors.

Do *I* have a problem with it?  I don't know.  My jury is still out there to be quite honest.  I do believe the above examples are a violation of fair housing laws but I guess personally I really don't care and won't find myself tangling in that mess.  I do believe it is completely natural and normal for one to be drawn to their own socio-economic status. 

But then again, I also believe that all money is green!

Very good post. I am going to have to go read the other posts you mentioned.

Debbie  Ditto

TLW  That's my intent, so I hope that it does unfold in an educational fashion.

Renee  I appreciate your honesty and insight.  You're right on that "it is completely natural and normal for one to be drawn to their own socio-economic status."

Monika  Thanks for the comment and please re-visit after you've had an opportunity to read the others!

AnthonyClarkRealtor.com

Anthony, Ok I went back and read the other posts and my comments I had left on your previous posts. Not quite sure where you think my opinion changed. My opinion is that I do not like people being placed in categories based on race, color, sex, nationality or religion. When I had commented on Tim's post, the trainer I was referring to was actually not talking about targeting one specific group but was suggesting that we have different areas on the same web site for different races etal to go to. I think that is wrong. I think we need to be concentrating our efforts on bringing people together not further separating them.

But you are right, having never been discriminated against I can only see things from my perspective.

Gay or straight? Doesn't matter to me but it may if I was gay. Don't know. I have gays in my family and never really gave it much thought.  

I will stay tuned in to see what responses you get. Very good post.

I know of Asian agents that market only to their nationality because they all speak the same language...and that is their niche...I understand that....the same goes for Puerto Rican agents, Argentinian, Cuban, French, Italian, German, Chinese and the like...if a language barier exists, give a referral to an agent that speaks the buyer or sellers language and let them have at it.....

...... if they are gay or lesbian and YOU have a problem handling their needs, let a more expierienced agent in that type of lifestyle handle the transaction...there ARE diplomatic ways of handling things like that so YOU are not seen as a bigot.

Diplomacy is a fine art of being an honorable agent...I hope more agents practice it....

=-D

It is sad that there is a need for us to be having this discussion, and I am shocked that despite laws, mandatory ethics courses, and fair housing legislation against discriminatory practices on the grounds of race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, and natiional origin (at least in my state) real estate agents are ambivalent in their attitude and response to discrimination, if not actually practicing it. It just goes to show that we cannot legislate people's hearts and feelings. But what about yhe Golden Rule? Treat others the way you would like to be treated.

The first note you make, about the New Orleans REALTOR's answer to a question about a gay friendly neighborhood, unfortunately, is perfectly answered for the DOJ.  They like to have testers I understand ask questions like this.  Technically, referring to a neighborhood, even when it is locally known by an ethnic name (Chinatown, Uke Village, etc.) is against anti-discrimination policy.  The answer technically to that question wasn't "if you're gay, here is a better neighborhood" because that is considered steering.  Do I agree with that - heck no!  That is the law, though, so be darn careful if you get hit with that one or something like it.

The second post you mention about SWEARA souds outrageous in the title but is anything but.  It is no different than the backlash against quotas and ethnic/skin color based college admissions and scholarships, etc., which have been ruled against in recent years in courts.  Please read that post carefully to see the real message, which is "why do we in America have to put everyone in a box or label them?"  There couldn't be a more anti-discrimination thought out there.  He just took an attention-grabbing headline and a lot of text to get to that.

All that said, discrimination is alive and well in America, more so than anywhere else in the world and it is disgusting.  Those particular comments/blogs just aren't the right places to point the finger at.

Anthony:

I have learned a lot from your group.  My eyes have opened to the need for awareness for the needs the GLBT community has.  I deplore the discrimination that community faces.  All that being said:

Eric Bouler didn't know what to do with the question posed to him.  Keep educating him.  New Orleans is a city that celebrates diversity.  His post was an open solicitation for help.  You should help him understand your point.

Tim Maitski wrote a provocative title; it worked.  Tim is as equally condemning of "segregation" in his post as you would be.  Maybe he is not a victim of the discrimination you cite but he is a man that finds it reprehensible.

You are making important progress; please don't make it difficult to be approachable.  Choose your words carefully and you'll find many more people asking you for advice. Build bridges over the waters of ignorance. You've established yourself as a leader and expert.  Keep it that way.

Bryant  I should not have spoken for you, my apologies.  Your comment on Tim's blog was as follows: "I think these catagories are disgusting. I read a post a few months back on AR about an instructor, sanctioned by NAR, teaching Realtors about placing these type of catagories on their web site. No matter how they want to justify it, it is racism at it's finest.  Some day, hopefully, we will all realise that we really are just alike. No catagories."  The categories being groups such as African American Realtors - Black referral site and Jewish Realtors - The Kosher Connection.  On my blog regarding special needs addressed by just such a group, you commented "by reading through these comments it actually showed me exactly what you are talking about. I would have never even thought of needing to structure the purchase differently to protect both parties in case of death, separation or whatever. Very good discussion. You should write a post on these isuues."  I guess I interpreted that as a "change in opinion."  Again I apologize for putting words in your mouth.  I certainly appreciate your knowledge (almost always expressed with humor) on a variety of topics and respect your opinion and input here as well!

Alexander  Thanks for the comment.  My objective is always to provide superior service.  If that means referring business out then so be it  :)

Eloise  Yes, I think it will always exist, but at least we live in a country where we're free to discuss it in an arena such as this!  The Golden Rule is a great way to keep it all in perspective. 

Gabriel  I am not talking about discriminating, giving preferential treatment, or labeling anyone.  My argument is that there are segments of the population that have special needs and it's not wrong for us, as professionals, to offer services and promote ourselves as experts that address those needs.

Brian  As usual you dished out the wisdom  :)  Thanks.

Anthony,

Discrimination is still very active and deals with the soul of this country.  I am 1 of 2, yes 2 African American Realtors in my area.  I've dealt with discrimination on a daily basis.  The way the racist believes, is the racist problem.  God will be their judge.

Realtors that discriminate, need to be held accountable.  WE, as a profession of Realtors, should not indulge ourselves in such conversations, even if it is meant to insight others.

I am with you.  I don't believe we need to continue to add to the separatist thought process.  Although, you know I will go to the other post and give my 2 cents.  Nope, I'll give 5 cents and let them keep the change.

Hi Anthony,

 I sold real estate in South Florida for several years.  There is a gay community called Wilton Manors it is an incorporated city in Broward County. If you want to sell real estate most agents marketing in this community did so with the rainbow flag, letting people in the community know that they are gay friendly. Does this make me a biggot to advertise with the rainbow flag.

It is a very confusing subject, and I think it is confusing for everyone. I have a diverse client base more so than other agents and I believe it is because I am not judgemental and curious about the world and everyone who is not like me.

I never hesitate to ask cultural questions. I think once we get over the political correctness and are comfortable discussing our differences (cultural differences). I love talking to people and finding out their story.

I have so many opinions on this subject it is hard for me to articulate my thoughts.

Maybe I will blog.

Have a great afternoon

Rebecca Savitski

www.Home-HuntersTeam.com

Anthony,

Thanks for the post. I think it is important to understand that we are primarily reactive in our approach to marketing. We understand a need exists and we position ourselves to provide for the solution. The need is created by the consumer. Whether the issue is cultural, language, gender or religion...we cannot legislate how people feel. Case in point, I did a listing presentation for a woman whose husband had already moved to Chicago, as a result of a job transfer. She was left with the task of selling the house. She later informed me that while she was pleased with my marketing plan she would be more comfortable working with a female listing agent. Some would have found this discriminatory, I would have preferred to have been told before I made the trip, but I accepted how she felt. Now if I were a woman, I would've contacted a mailing list provider and have them create a custom list of divorced women in high end homes, who may be looking to down size. You may call it discriminatory, I call it niche marketing. And so it goes with gays, blacks, orthodox Jews, women and the like....who better to understand my needs and wants than someone who has walked in my shoes or perhaps the person accompanying the person who has walked in my shoes!

Ray  Thanks for contributing to the dialogue.  I know - from experience - rural Arkansas can be a difficult place for a minority to live without experiencing discrimination.  My parents left a church congregation in eastern Arkansas a couple of years ago because the leadership would not allow a black minister to interview for a pastoral position.  It's unfortunate to say the least.

Rebecca  An inquisitive, open mind is such a great asset! 

William  You have such a talent for writing.  "We understand a need exists and we position ourselves to provide for the solution. The need is created by the consumer."  I wish I could have said it that well.

AnthonyClarkRealtor.com

Great, interesting topic.

Article 10 of the Code of Ethics indicates that "REALTORS® shall not be parties to any plan or agreement to discriminate against a person or persons on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin. (Amended 1/90)".

Anthony, do you think Article 10 should be amended  to include sexual preference?

How is marketing to a specific niche, discrimantin against any other group?

Darin  Yes, I think that amendment would be beneficial to both the industry and the consumer.  I don't believe that marketing to a niche is discriminatory.  As real estate professionals, we provide a service.  If we can target a demographic that has a special need and help meet that need then we've done our jobs well.

AnthonyClarkRealtor.com

I agree with you. Marketing to a niche is not the only way, but I feel it is the best way. The consumer is best served in this way. And isn't that what it's all about, the consumer?

I had an Agent in a new homes community refuse to answer the question when I communicated my client's concerns to her. I said, "Is the subdivision gay friendly?" She said, "I can't answer that, it's illegal." I reminded her that Sexual Orientation is not covered in the Fair Housing Act. And until it is and there is real protection for GLBT people, I'll keep asking the question. It's important that all of my clients feel safe. I deliver neighborhood crime statistics at the request of any of my clients. Unfortunately it's harder to determine the GLBT friendliness without asking that direct question. So in order to serve my clients, I ask. Sue me. I'm trying to be a responsible agent.

C. Mark,

Some states such as New Jersey have laws that are more inclusive than the federal and as such the question is illegal in these states.

Anthony, Great post very thought provoking.

I can honestly say that every inch of the island of Manhattan is "gay friendly" I haven't even heard that term in quite a while. We don't really have neighborhood boundaries anymore. New buildings have become destinations on to themselves.

So much of today's marketing is to "lifestyles," "niches," "demographics" or god-for-bid "stereotypes". Are stereotypes the marketing tool for the new millenium? Perhaps.

I think this new marketing tool is here to stay. Whether it is a building in the financial district marketing to young single male heterosexuals on Wall Street by using a sexy female in their ads or whether it's NYC's largest broker The Corcoran group's huge billboard in Chelsea featuring a shirtless male with a 6 pack with the tag line "New to the Market XXX mint it obviously works.

I think there is a clear distinction between marketing to a niche and discrimination in housing.

My feeling about "fair Housing" is being comfortable in your own skin knowing right from wrong it's not in a pamphlet. I know I live in a very progressive city that is more tolerant than many places. I can't imagine a gay tester in Manhattan. The majority of male agents are gay. Most agents gay or straight in Manhattan want gay clients because they are good clients. They buy and sell often, their homes usually sell for a premium. The straight buyers want to buy all their furniture.

I recently had a gay couple (one of my best clients I've sold them 3 apartments) relocate to Florida. I referred them to an agent I did not know who was not gay and she discriminated. Her loss. I immediately found them another agent that I checked out first who immediately sold them an $800,000 condo in South Beach. 

C. Mark  My feelings exactly.  As long as my customers' safety is an issue and I can legally do so, I will ask/answer questions.

Mitchell  I think there is a clear distinction between marketing to a niche and discrimination in housing.  I certainly agree. 

I think discrimination in any form is wrong and I would never try to work exclusively with any particular group, nor would I refuse to work with anyone due to race, religion, or sexual orientation. I joined this group because, as a gay person, I think that some GLBT people feel more comfortable with someone who can perhaps understand them better, especially since I now live in an area which I believe to be more conservative than where I lived before. I agree with Mitchell's comment that there is a distinction between niche marketing and discrimination. I earned a Senior's Real Esate Specialist designation in order to better serve the needs of people over 50. I don't think that designation is meant as a means of discriminating against those younger than 50. In the same respect, reaching out to the gay and lesbian community is not discriminating against straight people.

I feel there is nothing wrong with showing my Gay and Lesbian buyers where the main "gay" areas are located in my city.  Nationally, we are not a protected class; therefore how can it be discriminatory to show them these areas?  Luckily, for St Louis being in the middle of the Bible Belt, our city is pretty progressive towards the GLBT population.  We have "family" living all over the city and county.  So, wherever we settle, it's just fine.

Rich & Tim  Thank you for contributing to the dialogue!

Illinois is another state that has made discrimination based on sexual orientation illegal (as I believe all states, and certainly the Federal Government should).

Rich  I think that topic is going to be hot over the next year or so, given the looming Presidential election. 

For information on what's currently happening in your state click here!

You have two issues here:  Fair Housing and Steering.  I do market to Gay and Lesbian clients.  However, I believe that if one ONLY markets to people based on a single characteristic, they could find themselves in violation of Fair Housing laws.  As to the comment of the New Orleans REALTOR, what he SHOULD have said is the same thing one should say to ANYONE:  "I can't guarantee that this area is safe for anyone." Any statements to the contrary could be steering people to or from a neighborhood.  If we as Gay agents are "steering" people to what we believe to be "Gay areas" -- however good our intentions may be -- we will find ourselves in trouble.  We should never be making those decisions for people.  I point people to our local Gay publications.  I show them homes in their price range that meet criteria not based on "people characteristics".

Gregory  Excellent points.  I think it's important that we provide customers with resources rather than "helping" with their decisions.

Hi Anthony,

Thanks for the thought provoking post.  It is not an easy topic.  I happen to agree, in principle with Tim Maitski... the principle being that we are all one human family and why can't we all work with anyone?  I also happen to be gay.  So I know first hand the feeling of anticipation around meeting new people and waiting to find out what their take is on me and my ilk. 

I'm 61 years old and I only came out 6 years ago.  I know that while I was in the closet I came across a good deal more derogatory remarks about gays than I do now as an openly gay man.  I believe that is a function of our societal evolution: It really isn't PC to be anti gay.  Of course...I live on the San Francisco Peninsula....not far from one of the prime gay capitals of the world. 

For the record, I also speak fluent Korean and know the culture cold from having lived in Korea for many years.  I have Korean clients who love me because I'm a native who knows their culture well.

Having said all this, the niche marketing opportunity that exists addresses a desire for people to feel comfortable which is primarily borne out of experience of discrimination and fear of repeat experience.  To me, that makes it ok. 

I guess the analogy of "White Guy Realtor" could be understandable, but it would probably be better to go for a more cohesive group...maybe "Redneck Realtor".  And, I would say, if it is a clientele that somebody would want to attract, it would be fine to do so...it would have the added advantage of giving me someone to refer to in case I come across such a client since I wouldn't want to deal with them myself.  ***just in case....let me note that this last comment is tongue in cheek***

By the way....India, with 1 billion people, 17 official languages (over 100 non official languages & dialects), and myriad cultures, has a great saying:  "Unity in Diversity"  ... It is worth pondering.

Don  You're absolutely right, it's not an easy topic.  I understand your point regarding "we are all one human family" and I certainly would never argue that I would/wouldn't or should/shouldn't work with anyone based on their sexual orientation.  My point is that until it is a federally protected class like race, religion, etc., there will be a need for agents who reach out to the gay community.  It's more than a marketing opportunity, it's fulfilling some very important, basic needs of a segment of the population.  Thanks so much for contributing and I look forward to reading your posts; you seem more than well-rounded!

Anthony- I think it is a real problem. We are not supposed to 'steer' to any specific community, but if I am Ukrainian (there are a lot of them where I live and many are new to this country) and I want to live in a Ukrainian community, we as realtors should be allowed to tell them where these communities are located. Our local board and all the instructors in classes I have attended have said NO. That it is considered steering.

So what DO you do in that case??? If I have a gay couple and I take them to a gay community, perhaps they do not want that. I personally think there are too many restrictions on what we are supposed to and not supposed to say!

I have taken the diversity training offered by NAR and even there, they worry about steering. I wish that people would just look at the home and the fact that it is in a clean, safe community, but not everyone leaves it at that.

Then you get the people who don't want to be in a 'bad' part of town....ok.....define 'bad'. It can really get confusing! If I am atheist, perhaps 'bad' is near a church. I mean we can take this to all kinds of extremes. Where does it ever stop????

Barbara-Jo & Bill  You make some excellent points.  I think it's hard for many to determine where to draw the line, but still make sure the consumer's needs are met.  What if we follow these 2 simple rules:

1. Let the consumer initiate discussion or express concern.
2. Stick to the facts.

If I were in the situation that Eric Bouler describes in Is this a gay friendly neighborhood? (which I have been numerous times) I would not skirt the issue as Mr. Bouler did.  I would answer with factual information, e.g. "well, there's a GLBT center 1 block away" or "there's a restaurant on the corner that displays a Pride flag certain times of year," etc.  I also make the police department "Crime Tracker" available to all customers - gay or straight.  If a consumer asks more probing questions I generally tell them where they can pick up a local GLBT publication or give them the web address to OkEq, the local GLBT center. 

Anthony-  I read your responses 2 days after making my post.  Your original post is great and I have yet to read the other two posts that prompted your post.  But it is a challenge because most communities don't have sexual orientation in their housing laws. Most state don't have it in their laws. And people always seem to be surprised when I tell them it is not in federal law.

Rick  Hopefully this post and your post will direct ARers to each other.  It's funny how much things differ by region; no one is surprised to find out that Oklahoma does not have legislation protecting individuals based on sexual orientation.  Someday....

Anthony,

I recently started with Baird & Warner and, looking through some of the marketing materials on our website, I was pleasantly surprised to find a flyer entitled "Our definition of family is inclusive". It is a great flyer which is in pdf format. I would have attached it, but I don't think I can do a pdf attachment on Active Rain, so I copied the text, which is below in quotes. Chicago Free Press is a local GLBT newspaper.

It is nice to be with a company that truly practices fair housing, and in a state (Illinois) that includes sexual orientation as a protected class. Hopefully things will change for the better throughout the country.

Here is the text of the flyer.

"Our definition of family is inclusive.
Baird & Warner's Good Will statement was first introduced in 1925, but its values remain just as
fresh today - and they are essential to the way we conduct business.
Chief among these guiding principles is "Respect" -
a heartfelt respect for the many people and diverse communities we serve.
Baird & Warner is proud to have put our words into action by historically taking
progressive leadership positions on a wide variety of issues - most notably in our advocacy of fair and open housing.
But our record of commitment goes even deeper - particularly where the
LGBT community is concerned. We've maintained a long-standing employment
non-discrimination policy that specifically includes sexual orientation - and we
offer Domestic Partnership benefits to all of our employees.
We are especially proud of our:
 Formal diversity training for all sales associates, managers and support staff.
 Regular full-page presence in the Chicago Free Press
- not just a token "pride-issue" appearance.
 Openly gay & lesbian members of our sales and management team.
 Active participation in LGBT community events.
 Historic role as the first realty firm in Chicago to proudly feature same-sex models in its advertising.
 Designated Fair Housing Officer.
For 150 years, Baird & Warner has been entrusted with the homeownership dreams
of millions of Chicagoland families - of every size and variety. We maintain a profound
respect for a world where everyone is equal -but definitely not the same.
Your favorite way home since 1855.
bairdwarner.com
Baird & Warner and "Your favorite way home since 1855." are trademarks of Baird & Warner."

Rich  It sounds like this is a company that you can be very proud to be associated with!

I wonder if "The Lovely Wife" ever came back to read the posts for her education?

Ann  I don't know, but if she did she didn't comment.  Hopefully she will at some point.

Unfortunately, we saw a prime example of hate, bigotry and discrimination in Bill Burress' anti-gay/lesbian post yesterday.  I understand the post has been withdrawn, but the message should not be lost on anyone. 

Anthony, It always surprises when people are in business to make money but they close the doors on people. Then wonder why their business is down.  One of my clients is a Gay couple and when I first met them they told me amazing stories of what other people would say behind their back but just loud enough for them to hear when they tried to obtain financing. Or they would get smart A$$ comments.  I was shocked. Hello?!?!? This was a super jumbo loan along with major real estate investors in the South Florida Market.  How could people be this stupid? 

Eric  Yes, I certainly opened up a can of worms....  but in the end I think the removal of the post was the best decision for the community based on the Active Rain community guidelines.

Matthew  Nothing surprises me anymore  ;)  I will assist anyone with a real estate need unless they want to do something illegal or unethical.  Otherwise it's all good to me.

Bill Burress  I am all for free speech, and do not condone censorship.  However, you have your platform and I have mine.  I didn't ask for your forgiveness as I have nothing to be forgiven for.  Find something productive to do.

To everyone else  cheer yourself up  or  go make someone smile today    :)

Good post.  Now in DC; Sexual Orientation is a protected class; so I could not answer the question about a "gay friendly" neighborhood any more I could answer about a "white friendly" or "catholic" neighborhood.

However - I think a lot of these folks need to get their heads out of the sand!  As far as a Niche - DUH !  Don't you think buyers and sellers often pick agents just because they are like them?

James, that's good news that D.C. has added "sexual orientation" as a protected class.  I just uploaded a post on the same subject, suggesting that NAR add sexual orientation to the Code of Ethics.

Anthony, bravo and thank you for offering Bill the link to the Human Rights Campaign website!

Looks like Bill may be understanding how it feels to be ostracized.  Maybe he'll understand how the young lady felt when he attacked her post and tried to organize a boycott against her.  It backfired and the result is clear.

I agree with you, Anthony.  No one who commented on Bill's post needs to be "forgiven" for speaking out against homophobia and intolerance.

James  I know consumers do! I've represented several (mostly relocating from other areas) who picked me because they wanted a gay agent.

Eric  When the NAR includes sexual orientation that will definitely be a positive step. In regards to Bill - you reap what you sow, right?

Unfortunately some of the spiritual leaders in this country are not in the forefront of human rights issues.

It would be wonderful if there was no discrimination, but there is.  So people will want to work with agents who understand their situation.

All the best

Kevin  Great point.  Seems like tolerance and compassion would be common threads among the many different religions and spiritual beliefs throughout the country, but sadly they seem to be missing from some.  Thanks for the comment!

A good post and well said.

Stewart  Thank you for the compliment.

Great post and I went to the other posts and commented on them. Thanks for pointing it out. Theres no gaying going around in New Orleans....Yeah Right!

Fernando  Thanks for the comment and taking the time to view the other posts.

Friday a group of business, government, and private interests met to discuss Fair Housing in Chattanooga. The subject of advocacy groups did not come up. The discussion addressed race gender and handicap concerns. The question of sexual preference did not come up even with those on the committe who are more progressive. I am somewhat less progressive, but opportunity is an American value, it is a conservative value. One that I hold dear.

The focus for our group is education about overt and unintentional forms of discrimination and education about opportunities.

I was surprised at the examples of discrimination that were brought up. I am just a little naive about the realities of minority life.

I suppose then that advocacy groups are needed today.

Richard  Thanks for the comment.  I suppose sexual orientation didn't come up in your group because it isn't a federally protected class.  There certainly are distinct needs for distinct groups.  It's about creating awareness, tolerance, and advocating rights for all.