User1505_2_t Morgan Carey
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I have just finished reading Brad Carroll's blog post on "Optimizing your active Rain Profile" and skimmed through all of the comments and I am AMAZED that there was not a single post questioning his suggestions regarding what Active Rain members should be doing with their profiles - He suggests a keyword loaded username so that your URL has keywords in it (Which has not had an effect on search engine rankings in several years) and even goes so far as to suggest that you put your full name in the first name field just so you can use the last name field to stuff extra keywords in your profile - I am sorry Brad (And I am posting this to help educate those 148 users who left comments and the countless others that read and may have taken this advice) not to pick on you. Later on in the post you do actually give some decent advice for descriptions etc but your SEO advice in this post is very poor and will IMHO make users look less professional

Your first suggestion:

"Select a username that is the keyword you are trying to optimize. For example, if you are trying to optimize for Sheridan Wyoming Real Estate, then make your username SheridanRealEstate. If you have already signed up for Active Rain, then keep this tip in mind as you join other social networks."

Your justification for this is that your user name becomes the URL and "I think" you are under the impression that keyword stuffed URL's are a benefit to search engine rankings. This is simply not the case - while it is important to have search engine friendly (Clean) URL's in order for spiders to be able to traverse your pages, making your user name a keyword so it shows up in the URL will not do anything for AR members profile rankings. And what if they choose wrong? These are permanent right? What if someone is trying to show up for "Area Realtor" and makes that their user name, sooner or later they will learn the hard way, that using "Area Realtor" as their user name is a violation of the NAR's membership mark, and they will be forced to delete that account or at least change the URL (Which means they start from square one) 

What really floored me though was what you suggested next: In effect inappropriately spamming the last name field. 

You posted and I quote:

"You may have been tempted to simply enter your first and last name when you signed up. That’s the obvious process, but your name will be seen on every comment you make, every blog post and more. So use this as an opportunity to include another keyword. This is important - Don’t use the same keyword as your username. Using the example above, if your username keyword is SheridanRealEstate, your Name keyword may be Sheridan Wyoming Real Estate or even Sheridan Wyoming Properties. To do this, simply enter both your first and last name into the First Name field. Next, enter your keyword into the Last Name field."

Are you kidding me?

Here is a quote regarding keyword stuffing (A form of spam) from Google's webmaster center that I hope everyone after reading this post decides to go and read - I am going to bold the most important part for emphasis

"Keyword stuffing" refers to the practice of loading a webpage with keywords in an attempt to manipulate a site's ranking in Google's search results. Filling pages with keywords results in a negative user experience, and can harm your site's ranking. Focus on creating useful, information-rich content that uses keywords appropriately and in context."

Ok so that addresses the search engine misinformation and spam issue, but think about what you just suggested

Active Rain has created this resource based on best practices and the fields they provide a user are not to be abused - you just suggested to a bunch of people to use the last name field for search engine spam instead of what it is labeled and meant for. Each person that takes this advice reflects negatively on the community as a whole and will inevitably invite more and more poor quality members who post with the intention of spamming search engine indexes. 

Next think about when the result you are going for happens to be achieved - you get your profile ranked highly in Google and all of a sudden people are seeing it - under first name, they see your first and last name, a under last name they see a bunch of keywords - people are going to think you are stupid and can't even fill out your own bio properly. You spoke very well later about how you want to have your profile make a good impression, yet at the beginning of your blog, you tell them to do the exact opposite. 

What we have here is a clear case of SEO tunnel vision - usability and professionalism are tossed aside because they are not given due consideration in conjunction with one's search engine optimization efforts. 

I hope this isn't taken as mean spirited because it really isn't meant to be - but hopefully it does serve as a reminder to all AR members, that they should take everything they read with a grain of salt and apply common sense to it. I got a little concerned when I saw over 140 comments on the post all saying thank you, and not a single person seemed to have read it. 

 

16 Comments on SEO Tunnel Vision: The blind leading the blind.

Morgan,

Good information.  I posted something to this effect earlier this week.  SEO is based on CONTENT.  I have had top search engine rankings for over 5 years and it's important that you don't "spam" the search engines by doing some of the things others suggest doing (such as hiding text of the same color as the background).

08/11/2007 05:51 PM by Michael Hoffman - CAI, AARE, CES, BAS (Michael Hoffman Auctioneer)


Thanks for clearing that up.

08/11/2007 06:14 PM by Dan Forbes (.)


Thanks for the advise, aleays looking for good SEO advise, Flagged you for a feature so those 100 + can see your  advice and decide for themselves what is best

08/11/2007 06:18 PM by Michael Eisenberg, Bellingham Realtor (BuyerTours Realty)


Morgan, I know nothing about SEO BUT I have great rankings. It makes sense to me that Google is looking for the most relevant content when filtering searches. So for me, it just makes sense to write about  what I know, OFTEN! I never even give key words a thought. If I'm writing about real estate in Poinciana Fl then the words will be there naturally. No need to try and load the post with words that don't fit.

I don't think I ever read an SEO post that is in agreement with another SEO post. Why is that?  Is it because maybe folks are trying to out smart Google? Personally I don't think that is EVER going to happen. Good content written naturally with no tricks or schemes will win out every time.

Very good post Morgan. Thanks for sharing. Now let's see if the same 140 members come in and agree with you.:)

Signed,

bestrealtorinpoinciana hiremeplease 

08/11/2007 06:19 PM by Bryant Tutas-Tutas Towne Realty, Inc


Bryant,

There is one statement that any SEO can make that no self respecting SEO will disagree with, and that is something to the effect of

"If you focus your content and efforts in creating a positive user experience for your visitors as opposed to focusing on tricks meant to game the search engines, you will be doing your search engine rankings a big favor." 

I didn't want to make that quote as the same I use in the signature of my profile at the Real Estate Webmasters Forum but it's the same message. For reference that quote on all 8500 posts states

"Webmasters who spend their energies upholding the spirit of the basic principles [Of Google] will provide a much better user experience and subsequently enjoy better ranking than those who spend their time looking for loopholes they can exploit. Google.com"

Now - here is the thing about Brad and his post. I honestly believe he has the best intentions in mind and is trying to help other AR members. Chances are he has had success doing his SEO and feels quite confident in his abilities (Which may be quite extensive) - but what it seems like is that he is a web developer trying to keep up with SEO or re-posting what he has read elsewhere that seemed like sound SEO advice. There is a big difference between being a developing who has had success with search engines and a search engine consultant (A good one) who understands the technology, logic, history and intentions of the search engines. 

 

08/11/2007 06:35 PM by Morgan Carey (Real Estate Webmasters)


Hi Morgan. Thanks for the link back to my article. I thought I would address some of your concerns. first of all, I also appreciate a good SEO discussion. But it is important to point out one big thing about my post. The post is about more than optimizing for Search engines. you will notice I also talk about optimizing for web visitors. Keep that in mind as you read though my comment.

Choosing a Good Username: I hardly think this would be considered keyword stuffing. Yes, part of the intention is to give search engines descriptive information about the page. To me this is no different than naming a page http://www.realestatewebmasters.com/web-design/ I think a descriptive username is also important for web visitors. It helps to identify who you are (and builds brand awareness and association). If a visitor sees the link activerain.com/realestatewebdesgin they imediatly know about me. You yourself proved this point when you referenced that I was a web developer. Concerning the SEO side of this. Matt Cutts recently touched on this at the WordCamp 2007 Conference. Descriptive titles do help Google. But because the words all run together, Google has a harder time parsing out the words. So why didn't I tell people to use dashes? For the very reason you mentioned. I didn't want people to put SEO over usability. The other reason I tell people to use keywords as their username is so their page will stand out in the search results. We all know that Google will bold any matching keyword in their search results page. So if someone's page shows up in the results, their link it going to be bold. That draws people's eye. so it gets more clicked. :-) 

About the Trademark Issue. I would never encourage anyone to violate trademarks. I would expect people to use their own judgment. On a side note. On your website your headline on your homepage is  "Complete Realtor Websites" is that a violation of NAR?

I will admit that I was a little reluctant to give advice about the "first name, last name" concept. But again, I don't see this as keyword spaming. The main focus is to build brand awareness and association with the persons specialty. To me, this is a far better approach than people leaving a keyword stuffed signature on every comment they make. If the powers that be at Active Rain say this is over the edge, I will gladly edit this out.

One last thing... About your comment. No, I am not simply a copy and paste blogger. I don't consider myself first a developer or seo guy. I first consider myself a marketing consultant. My goal is to give advice that will have a positive effect on both search engines AND site visitors. Like you, I agree that content is king. Take a look at some of my other post. I think that you will quickly agree that I seek to give solid content. I don't use AR to "game the search engines" or even bait to get traffic to my site. Read my post about Google Guidelines. I think you will see we are more alike than you think.

Also, I just wrote a follow up to my last post but this time focusing on the Blog side of AR. I would be interested in your feedback.  Sorry about the long comment. If you would rather me post this as a separate post, just let me know.

08/11/2007 10:52 PM by Brad Carroll - Real Estate Web Designer (Dakno Marketing)


Very good response Brad. Thanks for chiming in. I'm just reading learning and blogging:)

08/12/2007 07:44 AM by Bryant Tutas-Tutas Towne Realty, Inc


Brad, Thank you for chiming in as well, I imagined you would :) As I touched on in my even longer comment above, I really do think you have users best interests in mind I just think you went overboard on the SEO of the profile sacrificing usability. You brought up a few things I will reply to here File naming and SEO - Believe it or not, I do not care as much about keywords in my URL as you might think - I name my files based on their content. my www.realestatewebmasters.com/web-design/ folder contains all of my files surrounding web design, so it is logical (Even if search engines didn't exist) to name it that way, that is the difference. I use hyphens for spaces, because in the actual phrase there is a space : it looks cleaner and because I don't want %20 (Character rendered for space in browsers) in my filenames hyphens are the way to go for me. You mention that your post is more about search engine optimization - I do realize this, however just because it is more about SEO does mean you should advise people to do things like keyword stuff a last name field - this is not Good for SEO as it is clearly against Google's quality guidelines, but even worse as mentioned above you have suggested something that goes against the very principals of Google and that is doing something strictly for a search engine and not a user - there is no scenario I can think of if search engines didn't exist where someone would fill a last name field with a search phrase, it's just not natural - I think you mentioned you are editing this out, that is probably a good idea. Finally in terms of the use of Realtor in a Title used in that matter - that is a damn good question, and one I am happy to ask Mary Newill about (She is the trademark administrator of the NAR and someone I have contact with frequently) - I actually think however in this case, that there may be no issue as I am not misrepresenting myself as a member of the NAR which is at the heart of the mark protection issue - Think of Google which is (Obviously) trademarked, it is still acceptable to create a descriptive phrase in your title using the mark, such as "Providing Google search engine consulting services" - Again though I am not 100% and am happy to follow up. Next - I probably could have worded myself better, I wasn't really trying to say you were a copy paste blogger (If I even said that) - You say you are first and foremost a marketing consultant - great so we have established your focus, I guess what I meant to say is, in reading your post I do not think you are a search engine consultant, you have confirmed this thank you. I still don't buy the argument that stuffing last name field with a keyword is building brand recognition or awareness. I think it was a case of "where can we put an extra keyword" - step back and read your post objectively, I think you will realize this. Finally - I am addressing your comments in that particular blog post, your previous posts are not relevant to the discussion - however I am sure you reference them to put yourself in context which is fair enough, but as I said right in the beginning, I do think you have AR users best intentions in mind, and in reading your comments and blogs VS the average Realtor, you certainly have "more" search engine knowledge than they do - I just think you come across as a search engine consultant in the post and you are clearly not a search engine consultant judging from the advice given. - The point of post is readers beware of which advice they take - and certainly I expect them to take my advice with a grain of salt and use their better judgement as well :)

Incidentally, I looked at your portfolio and you do very nice work.

08/12/2007 01:07 PM by Morgan Carey (Real Estate Webmasters)


Hi Morgan, nice post, and responses. I would have to disagree on your stance of keyword url's. If you get a moment, search for "stop foreclosure" on any search engine. My site has more content about actually doing it than any other I have found besides HUD, but what is the common thing you see in your first 5 pages of results? They all have "stop foreclosure" in their url. I doubt it's coincidence. Just my 2 cents.

08/12/2007 01:19 PM by Tom Jeffers Affordable Realty of Ohio LLC (Affordable Realty of Ohio LLC)


Hi Morgan,

I agree with you about the file naming. One of the reasons my username is realestatewebdesign is because that is my forte and the majority of my post will be about exactly that. Real Estate Web Design.

Please pass on any information you get about the trademark. My intention was not to point fingers (I know you didn't take it as that but it's always good to make things clear) I have wondered this for a while (even went as far as removing the term in my site's title tag).

Concerning the 'first name, last name'. To each his own. I choose to do this instead of manually inserting a signature. Maybe AR should follow REwebmasters lead and implement a signature?

At the end of the day, my "title" doesn't really matter much to me. SEO Consultant, Marketing Guy, or Web Designer. My goal is to provide people with useful information and keep them away from "Snake Oil" SEO sales people (by the way, I am in no way including you or REwebmasters in this group!)

I have subscribed to your blog and look forward to future SEO discussions! I think discussions like these greatly benefit readers. And like you said, people can then come to their own conclusion on what will work for their specific needs.

Thanks and see you around the Rain!

And thanks for the compliment on my portfolio! 

08/12/2007 02:36 PM by Brad Carroll - Real Estate Web Designer (Dakno Marketing)


You say you choose to do this instead of manually inserting a signature - that is the thing, I don't think users should be abusing signatures for SEO purposes either - I guess I am just sensitive because I run a social networking site as well, and I know that if I create a field called "last name" I should be able to expect that users will use it for their last name, and not a place to stuff keywords - the same with a signature, your signature should be used to identify you or help people remember you (Such as a marketing tagline) not so that you can put in a bunch of keywords or links. 

I am glad you decided to chime in with your thoughts, I was really questioning my tone when I wrote this, and it wasn't meant to be an attack or be offensive, and you certainly seem like someone who is open minded in terms of these kinds of things kudos. 

For the rest of the readers, this is what I want you to take away from this whole thread

If you are going to do something because you think or you have been told that it will help your SEO, first ask yourself "Would I do this if a search engine didn't exist, and will it help my readers" if the answer is no, then don't do it. You can achieve great search engine rankings without having to sacrifice usability, or appear less professional - it is not one or the other, you can easily achieve both.

08/12/2007 08:13 PM by Morgan Carey (Real Estate Webmasters)


Morgan, Well said. I am not easily offended and didn't take this post as a "slam." Although I didn't love the headline referencing the "blind leading the blind." But I just figured your motivation was to write a catchy headline that will get people to click. So no worries. 

08/13/2007 11:15 AM by Brad Carroll - Real Estate Web Designer (Dakno Marketing)


As you well know - writing a great title is what gets people to click and read - what I read in the article was a clear cut case of "SEO Tunnel Vision" as we refer to it at Real Estate Webmasters (Which basically means thinking about SEO without thinking about other factors such as reputation or other marketing) - The "blind leading the blind" was a reference to the fact that everyone in the entire article 100+ comments completely blindly agreed to the advice without questioning it, and that is what really surprised me and caused me to write the post. 

It's a common happening at Active Rain, and most because I think the level of understanding in terms of SEO by the members is still relatively low - I think you and I both will be able to provide some great insights and help the members get up to speed on these issues so that they are more qualified to help themselves understand and contribute to such discussions. They took the advice "blindly" because they didn't knowa any different.

As you know - (And referenced) there is a lot of Snake Oil being sold and being called SEO - although our fellow members do not have to become SEO's - they really should try to understand it so that they know how to ask the right questions and can see the forest through the trees. 

08/13/2007 12:50 PM by Morgan Carey (Real Estate Webmasters)


Incidentally - I am just going through new signups at REW Blogs, and a user has tried to enter his first name as "Kansas City Realtor Jason" - Not only is that not his first name and keyword stuff, it IS a violation of the membership mark Realtor. Not sure if this user read your post - but it goes to show how some people who don't understand such things can do themselves a disservice - this user has been denied an  account at REW Blogs reason: Inappropriate username. 

08/13/2007 03:06 PM by Morgan Carey (Real Estate Webmasters)


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Real Estate - Other: Morgan Carey (Real Estate Webmasters)
Morgan Carey
Nanaimo, BC
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